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Thread: O/T- referendum

  1. #15
    Senior Member Jeroensurf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boards_Florian View Post
    "
    The only case of gross governmental failure is Greece. But there it has nothing to do with left/right but with a rotten political culture in general.
    Well don,t run out the talents of Spain and Italy....
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  2. #16
    Hey, before the crisis, Spain was flourishing and had budget surpluses! They still have a much lower debt to GDP ratio than e.g. Germany (which is often portrayed as a master of austerity). And Italy, well, I think it's similar to Greece in that it has nothing to do with left or right but rather with a general cultural problem. As long as tax evasion is treated as a not-problem (Berlusconi implicitly encouraged people to commit tax fraud) it is hard to balance a budget (even with low degrees of government spending). And once more, there simply is no evidence that the level of taxes and government spending determines economic success. Just ask the Swedes on here. Taxes on levels which appear dreadful high even from a german perspective and yet, one of the most civilized and ecnonomically sound society in Europe (if not the world).

  3. #17
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    This is another step in a five-hundred-year argument about Britain's place in the world. In that time, Britain has generally looked outwards beyond Europe, but occasionally has looked inwards towards Europe in order to counter the growing power of one or other of our neighbours. Often that has involved war. Fundamentally the EU isn't about budget surpluses, taxes, economics, or prisoners getting the vote. Fundamentally it's about halting Europeans' historic tendency to fight each other. That is the basic objective behind the EU: stopping Europeans slaughtering each other, by dissolving nationalities. The British don't want to be absorbed by a European super-state - but if we're not part of it, how can we prevent our neighbours developing in directions we don't want? (And don't think that war in Europe couldn't happen again - it could.)
    Siamo nella merda

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by boards_Florian View Post
    In general, I think that there are certain areas in which the EU is indeed overdoing things which could be handled on a more regional basis, but on the other hand, a much higher level of integration is needed on other issues, such as, for instance, foreign policy, banking regulation and probably even to a certain degree taxes and welfare systems (I guess the banking regulation is one point the UK will never agree upon).
    ... and with higher levels of integration on non-trade policies would signal an 'out' vote for a large proportion of UK citizens.

    Take Welfare & Labour policy, many UK citizens would welcome reform, sadly it won't be marching to the tune of integrationists and left wingers:

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...oft-touch.html

  5. #19
    Senior Member Graemef's Avatar
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    *Out, being part of a Federal United States of Europe was never supposed to be the deal. I've traded with the b**tards most of my career, still am and level playing field it aint, even down to a simple thing like ebay, you try to set up an ebay account to deal with Germany, it can't be done they can sell this way, we can't sell their way.
    Both France and Germany are extremely nationalistic in their trading styles, methods and business practices, about the only thing we have against the b**tards is the City and call me Dave is right to keep them from imposing their bloody tax on it however badly we might feel about the City cretins.

    No, immigration, taxation, waste, and cultural differences are all reason to f**k it off, they'll still trade, it's in their interest and I doubt it'll be much different than it is now, at least we won't be under the illusion that it's a free market when it never really has been.

    *reprinted same answer I gave jimbo on the yottie forum but they had an argument yesterday about a rudder and are all still in their asylum on medication

  6. #20
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    lol, interesting that this forum has more politically aware folks on it isn't it?

  7. #21
    Senior Member TwoFish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boards_Florian View Post
    Hey, before the crisis, Spain was flourishing and had budget surpluses! They still have a much lower debt to GDP ratio than e.g. Germany (which is often portrayed as a master of austerity). And Italy, well, I think it's similar to Greece in that it has nothing to do with left or right but rather with a general cultural problem. As long as tax evasion is treated as a not-problem (Berlusconi implicitly encouraged people to commit tax fraud) it is hard to balance a budget (even with low degrees of government spending). And once more, there simply is no evidence that the level of taxes and government spending determines economic success. Just ask the Swedes on here. Taxes on levels which appear dreadful high even from a german perspective and yet, one of the most civilized and economically sound society in Europe (if not the world).
    Aha. The good old leftie view that we can keep spending / redistributing and that there are some other rich folk out there who should pick up the bill for that (with a bit of borrowing and burdening future generations thrown in for good measure). It's that sort of reality denying which has led the Eurozone where it is (and why we stayed out of it). If that mindset continues in the EU, then maybe you are beyond hope and it is time we cut free.
    Eeeh 'tis grim dahn Sarf.

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