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  1. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silicon Beach View Post
    Yes, and also as Ola says: concentrate on surfing the wave. I know his tip is OT (about wave power rather than wind, apparent or otherwise) but for me it is crucial. I find that if I focus too much on the rig and what the wind is doing I lose the 'bigger picture' of what the wave is doing.

    As Basher says apparent wind theory is fascinating stuff, but real world wave riding is really all about maintaining speed on a wave. If you have it then the rest follows (stylish bottom / top turns, throwing spray, moves like 360's, takas etc).
    I certaintly don't disagree with any of this. Personally I don't think I ever look or even think much about the rig while sailing. Sheeting the sail to the apparent wind is about feeling. So you look where you want to go and sheet in or out depending on whether you want more or less power. When I still believe a thread like this can be useful is because I observe how a large percentage (a big majority actually) systematically makes mistakes on the water. The most common is pulling in too much on the mast arm. That's a hand brake! If you do that when entering a gybe or bottom turn you loose half the drive and stall on the tail. Even just holding the boom a bit too far forwards with the mast hand is pretty handicapping. This is common knowledge but easy to forget on the water. So I say it as often as I can. If Basher and other regulars here has got this sorted that's great! I wish more people had.

    To ride a wave with less than 45 degrees well you must also be able to generate and handle a lot of power in the rig in clew first mode when through down wind and going up towards the lip. And do so without having the sail block your way. That's not trivial. Even pros (as far as I could see in Sylt including Josh Angulo) struggle with this which shows that going by feel is sometimes not enough. Yes, you should surf the wave and Yes, you need to sheet the sail by feel to the apparant wind (without looking at it). But if you don't realize that sail and body needs to totally swap position as you turn back up the wave it's not going to work. Even in Pozo only a relatively small elite can do this. Up here where we get way too little wave practise very few can do it well. I'm certainly still only starting to get it right myself but at least I've got my head around it as Basher says. I'm really not convinced that he has.

    In this thread I've also pointed out that the potential drive in the sail will drop dramatically as you turn through downwind. This, of course, is something that everyone should know and that anyone should be able to feel. The trouble in onshore waveriding is that you have very little time. Unless you drop your weight well to the inside of the turn at the exact right moment the board will stall and the rig will try to pull you downwind. And you'll make a lame "top" turn in front of the wave at best. At worst you'll get steamrolled with or without a backwinded sail on top of you.

    My main goal is to help others progress in waves. I can't teach onshore specialists a thing but wish they could supplement or correct me if needed. I certainly don't want to mislead anyone.
    Last edited by boards_Tomas; 8th October 2017 at 11:18 PM.
    The infamous wavewriter

  2. #9
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    I built a spreadshee model to quantify apparent wind shift relative to board. Yellow lines are input. I guessed board speed form gps tracks in ordinary water and then added 5 knots in direction of wave travel. When heading up the wave apparent wind comes aboout 60 egrees off the nose. Does that sound about right?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Boards: F2 Gorilla 76, Tabou Quadster 86, Fanatic Triwave 95, Starboard Kombatwave 96, F2 Stoke 115, JPFreeRace 125, Sails: Gaastra Poison 4.2, North Hero 4.2, North Ice 4.7, Simmer Icon 5.3, Gaastra Cross 6, Ezzy Elite 6.1, Tushingham Storm 6.5, Severne Turbo 7.5

  3. #10
    I'm struggling to read that, but it's also a bit dubious because we cannot plot the board speed and board direction, the wave speed and direction, and the true wind direction in any simple way. The true wind, and two created winds, are probably best shown by vectors.
    Apparent wind is much simpler when there's no wave involved, and no current.

    Here's a picture of one of our smaller waves today, showing how we can stay sheeted in for the bottom turn, even though the true wind is well onshore.
    In this case, the true wind probably runs from boom end to mast, but that true wind may be blanketed by the wave or else partly funnelled in a deflected direction along the wave face.
    We don't need to know that – we just sheet the rig to what we feel.

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    Last edited by basher; 11th October 2017 at 08:08 PM.
    Now back in the UK.

  4. #11
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    If you click on picture it should open up and be readbale. As you suggested I used vectors. I tarted by using speed in a flattish water gybe then assumed if there is a 5 knot wave it will add 5 knots to board speed in one direction (relative to sea floor or ny other stationary point). Maybe if you can read results look at final row and see if that looks about right, and any suggestions to modify any addumptions
    Boards: F2 Gorilla 76, Tabou Quadster 86, Fanatic Triwave 95, Starboard Kombatwave 96, F2 Stoke 115, JPFreeRace 125, Sails: Gaastra Poison 4.2, North Hero 4.2, North Ice 4.7, Simmer Icon 5.3, Gaastra Cross 6, Ezzy Elite 6.1, Tushingham Storm 6.5, Severne Turbo 7.5

  5. #12
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    @ maker
    Well done for trying to work out how the angle of the apparent wind changes through the turn. I can't really comment as it's way above my head.

    @ Basher
    That's a good picture of a good rider in relatively onshore conditions. It's still a poor illustration of your point since the rider has to turn around another 90 degrees or so to hit the unbroken section "vertically" (like he would for a wave 360) and will therefore need to open up the clew a lot more. Like many others, including magazines, advertisers and riders themselves, you've picked a picture which shows a stance resembling more sideshore conditions. That's because it looks cool. But that's also why it's so hard to for people to understand what it takes to go really vertical. And which is why I have a mission on this forum.

    Check Adam Lewis around 3:58 and tell me you still have no clew oops clue.
    https://livestream.com/accounts/9351...deos/163747124

    Or at 3.49.16 or at 3.51.16
    Or Mussolini at 3.46.40 or at 3.54.41.

    PS The good thing about Basher never being able to see the obvoius is it's getting increasingly obvious for everyone else.
    Last edited by boards_Tomas; 11th October 2017 at 08:34 PM.
    The infamous wavewriter

  6. #13
    It's actually a very good illustration of the issue of apparent wind. It shows the sailor heading dead downwind in relation to the true wind, and yet he's still sheeted in.
    Now back in the UK.

  7. #14
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    Being able to stay sheeted on a downwind run is not the issue. (If you go fast enough downwind you'll actually be unable to open the sail without backwinding.) The issue is how to deal with the sail as you keep turning through downwind and power up clew first.

    Did you rewatch the video above? We've got proof you've actually seen it before. But you've apparently got a blind spot the size of the wave sail.
    The infamous wavewriter

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